Christian preacher threatened with arrest for saying homosexuality is a sin (even though he said nothing of the sort)
The Christian Institute via Cranmer…
The preacher didn’t mention homosexuality and as Cranmer writes, “the offence, of course, is the gospel of Jesus Christ. Yet now it seems that preachers can be silenced merely on the strength of a false accusation.
“His Grace preaches that salvation is found in Jesus of Nazareth and none other.
“His Grace is accused of homophobia/racism/sexism/sundry transgressions of various rafts of equality legislation.
“His Grace is threatened with arrest and silenced by the authorities.
“And thus the wheel has come full circle.”
I don’t see what all the fuss is about. The bible says, you have to ‘hate fags’ just like Fred Phelps says. If you’re going to ban this preacher, then you may as well ban the bible.
I would hate to see this personality disappear from the high street, as it takes away my right to challenge him. He makes an enormously arrogant claim, after all (like all followers of monotheism). Not only does he know that there is a mind at work in the Universe – something which no-one, not even NASA has been able to verify – but he also claims complete intimacy with that mind. He knows ‘God’s’ opinion on who I should sleep with, and in which position,among other claims.
Rather than rushing to the police, does it not occur to ask this ridiculous man, how he knows this information? If his opinion is only supported by a few verses of a book, written by primitive bronze-age peasants, who thought the Earth was only 4,00 years old – then all that remains is to laugh at him. People in 600BC had an excuse I suppose: they lived before Darwin, Copernicus, Newton, Pasteur, Curie, Watson, Crick, Hubble. This crackpot should know better.
In Matt 5:11; 10:22, the supposed Jesus reportedly warned his followers, to expect mockery or worse, after all. This is one of the few biblical prophecies worth fulfilling. I claim that right and I will not have it snatched away by politically correct, faith-loving, Nu-Labour do-gooders.
You sound a bit like Fred Phelps in reverse. No offence.
“The bible says, you have to ‘hate fags’”
Wrong: the Bible says you have to hate sin because it’s what keeps us from the Almighty. Christ died for sinners and that includes people who have sinned sexually – if they repent of those sins and ‘go and sin no more’ as the Saviour told the adulteress.
“I would hate to see this personality disappear from the high street, as it takes away my right to challenge him.”
It’s called freedom of speech for him and you. I’d prefer it to be done respectfully and intelligently, or do you blurt out “The bible says, you have to ‘hate fags’” due to your lack of understanding?
“He makes an enormously arrogant claim.”
Rubbish.
Let me get this straight. When NASA locates Heaven, you’ll believe? Kind of takes away the ‘faith’ element, doesn’t it? Anyway, the evidence is all around us if you take the time to see it.
Who you should sleep with – perhaps you are currently engaged in a homosexual lifestyle? You’ll enjoy lashing out at Christians then, despite the fact that almost every culture through history made same sex acts taboo.
People currently in a homosexual relationship, unfortunately, pick on easy targets to try and justify within themselves their sin. It’s as if attacking Christians is a reflex action aimed at easing their guilt?
It clearly doesn’t work.
“primitive bronze-age peasants”
Of the type who built magnificent cities. You’re kidding yourself again.
“This crackpot should know better.”
What, like some of the famous people you mentioned who were Christians?
Carry on mocking – it’s your right – like you say, it was prophesied for these last days when the world is weighed down with sin and unbelief.
“politically correct, faith-loving, Nu-Labour do-gooders”
New Labour has been one of Christianity’s biggest enemies in the UK.
Where do you expect to spend eternity? There are only two destinations. I hope you get yourself onto the narrow road that leads to life.
Kind of takes away the ‘faith’ element, doesn’t it?
That line sums up why Christianity is the world’s most effective con. “Believe in x without evidence in order to go to heaven. Evidence is bad. You shall have none. No evidence for you. Faith alone!”
You never stop for a moment and ask why God wants to reward a deficiency in basic reasoning skills? Oh nevermind.
Of course we mock you. How could we not?
“The Bible says you have to hate sin because it’s what keeps us from the Almighty. Christ died for sinners and that includes people who have sinned sexually – if they repent of those sins and ‘go and sin no more’ as the Saviour told the adulteress.”
Well, what does the Bible tell you to do to gay people? As those placard-waving nitwits like to remind us, during gay pride. Followers of monotheism have spent centuries oppressing, torturing, murdering and slandering gay people, inspired by their faith. ‘Sin’ is meaningless anyway, and no indication of morality, because there is no requirement for there to be a victim. Homosexuality is one case where no one is harmed.
“It’s called freedom of speech for him and you. I’d prefer it to be done respectfully and intelligently”
I respect your right to free speech, and that is all. You ask me to believe you based on no evidence. Why should I respect that? I don’t. I suspect it, deeply.
“Let me get this straight. When NASA locates Heaven, you’ll believe? Kind of takes away the ‘faith’ element, doesn’t it? Anyway, the evidence is all around us if you take the time to see it.”
- None of this explains how you know god’s mind, how you know the contents of the bible to be true, and how you know a god exists. ‘When’??! – you are making massive leap of faith, based on an overdose of wishful thinking to use this word. You talk as if it were a given. To repeat, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. ‘If’ you locate heaven, fine: I doff my cap. I won’t fall on my knees, but I’ll accept your argument. But the evidence has to be compelling. E.g the televised return of Jesus Christ, live during a match at Old Trafford, or in the middle of Match of the Day.
- This god must have been extremely lazy, inept or sadistically cruel. Out of all the collapsed stars, failed galaxies, here is a tiny corner of the universe with a solar system supporting life. And almost all planets are uninhabitable. Here we are on a planet, where for nine-tenths of its existence, complex life was impossible. And 99% of life that ever was, is extinct. And soon, there will be nothing again, when Andromeda crashes into us. Not a very clever designer. So, what is this evidence for a god? Charles Darwin gave us much better explanations – more plausible, more parsimonious.
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“Who you should sleep with – perhaps you are currently engaged in a homosexual lifestyle? You’ll enjoy lashing out at Christians then, despite the fact that almost every culture through history made same sex acts taboo. People currently in a homosexual relationship, unfortunately, pick on easy targets to try and justify within themselves their sin. It’s as if attacking Christians is a reflex action aimed at easing their guilt?”
- (Guilt? LOL To repeat, ‘sin’ is a meaningless concept) Gay people don’t actually pick on Christians. Although, yes, for the ridiculous unfounded claims many of you make, it becomes easy, and a necessity. It’s more likely that many Christians have an eternal victim complex. You dish out hatred, try to inflict misery on the LGBT community through the legal system. Yet, when people criticise you for your ridiculous beliefs, you squeal about persecution. Get a thicker skin, and face the consequences for what you say and do. We too can be offended, and it’s time people reminded you, and it’s high time you got used to it.
- Almost every culture made living sacrifices and endorsed slavery. Does that make such actions a good thing? We simply have a better sense of morality and better understanding of sexuality.
“primitive bronze-age peasants….Of the type who built magnificent cities. You’re kidding yourself again.”
- So if you claim that for 15th century Christians, who built their religious buildings based on fraud and theft, then claim it too for the Egyptians, the Romans, the Greeks, the Ottomans – why reject Amon Ra, Zeus, Aphrodite, Jupiter, Appollo and Neptune. Indeed, why is there more evidence for your god, as opposed to all these – and moreover all the personal gods that every Christian believer, from Gene Robinson to Fred Phelps, has?
‘ “This crackpot should know better”….What, like some of the famous people you mentioned who were Christians?’
- Knowledge is cumulative. A 10 year old today might thrill Aristotle to the core about how the solar system works. Newton, who lived before we knew about evolution, genetics, radiation, the theory of relativity, plate tectonics, the Big Bang, microbes, and the genome project, had an excuse. You don’t.
“Carry on mocking – it’s your right” – you leave me no option. I only want to extinguish the belief system, not the believers themselves.
“New Labour has been one of Christianity’s biggest enemies in the UK.” – well, they just love faith schools, the muslim council of Britain, prosecuting channel four researchers and sharia kangaroo tribunals.
“There are only two destinations. I hope you get yourself onto the narrow road that leads to life.”
- thanks for the offer. Look, I appreciate, that as far as you are concerned, you must think you are doing me the greatest act of love and kindness. If it were the case that I am about to fall into the abyss and the flames, I would not be able to thank you enough. But I don’t know if I want to live in a situation of eternal praise for the great leader. Even the Iranians are realising, they don’t want to be slaves to a tyrant, and don’t want to be owned. By what right, am I to be judged on the supposed ‘Judgement Day’?
Adrian:
“Well, what does the Bible tell you to do to gay people?”
Tell them what Christ told the adulteress: “go and sin no more”.
“Homosexuality is one case where no one is harmed.”
Except the soul of the unrepentant sinner. Nothing could be more serious.
“You ask me to believe you based on no evidence.”
There is evidence all round, but:
If you read Romans chapter 1 certain things are revealed.
v16 – The gospel of Christ is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believes.
v17 – The righteousness of God is revealed to those of faith.
v18 – The wrath of God is also revealed from heaven.
vv19&20 – There is no excuse for denying the reality of God.
vv21&22 – People know God, but become vain in their imaginations and their foolish hearts become darkened. They Profess themselves to be wise, but they have became fools.
vv23&24 – Because of their unfaithfulness, God gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves.
vv26-28 – These verses spell it out plainly: God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient.
vv29-31 – Is a list of other behaviour associated with “a reprobate mind”.
vv32 – Finally, despite knowing the judgment of God that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
Adrian -
“slaves to a tyrant, and don’t want to be owned.”
The truth shall set you free. I know how the chains of sin can strangle you – imagine that for all eternity?
“By what right, am I to be judged on the supposed ‘Judgement Day’?”
Everyone will be judged. Have you so much pride that you think you’ll be exempt? You won’t be and neither will I. I will have the Creator and Saviour to plead my case. So can everyone else.
Thank you Stewart. And what happens, when we reject your ultimatum, to ’sin’ no more, and tell you to mind your own business? That’s when the intolerance usually kicks in.
All these quotes from Romans are just the opinions of St Paul. How do you know St. Paul’s words are God’s word? How did he know that the wrath of God was being revealed from heaven? How did he know that the wonders of the world around him were attributale to God’s ‘eternal power and divine nature’? We are back at square one….
You make similar claims about the ‘chains of sin’ and the inevitability of judgement. Yet, no evidence to back up your claims. I am not interested in whether I am ‘exempt’ or not. I do not recognise anyone’s right to judge me at the end of my life. I am no-one’s property. The saviour and creator can… go to hell for all I care. Sorry, but that’s what I think.
It’s not ‘my’ ultimatum, it’s what you *must* do if you want to avoid the flames.
If you reject the Christ then, clearly, you won’t have a leg to stand on come Judgment Day.
“That’s when the intolerance usually kicks in.”
Like what?
“All these quotes from Romans are just the opinions of St Paul.”
He is speaking plainly for our benefit. I know that is frowned upon these days. I don’t see anything he says in Romans ch.1. to be out of sync. with what is true and right.
“I am not interested in whether I am ‘exempt’ or not.”
You’re not.
“I do not recognise anyone’s right to judge me at the end of my life.”
Pride cometh before destruction.
“I am no-one’s property.”
You are not your own.
“The saviour and creator can…”
No, that is YOU the road you are on.
Q. Do you think Hitler, Stalin, Harold Shipman, etc., have got away with their crimes because they are dead?
- Yes, Hitler, Stalin and Shipman probably did evade justice. They were never able to confront the evil they did. But it’s no use pretending some such place exists, just to console the victims of their crimes. It really is a shame there is no hell for people like Jerry Falwell to rot in – for his sake, I would dearly love it to exist.
However, these same characters can be given a miraculous whitewash, a valeting of their conscience, by simply being ‘forgiven’. They can claim, they were ‘led’ into temptation, rather than owning up and taking responsibility for their actions.
After all the promises of eternal damnation, you still have to come up with a reason why I should believe you.
Adrian, don’t worry, there is a Hell, but you don’t rot, as such, you are aware of your sins that were never accounted for and they burn you up for eternity as an unquenchable fire.
I imagine that was Harold Shipman’s fate – he is haunted by each and every person he murdered and unlike his time on earth, the guilt is eating him up in that unquenchable fire.
I don’t know if you are ready to hear about the personal experience I had that explains how I know this.
“After all the promises of eternal damnation, you still have to come up with a reason why I should believe you.”
Is there a better reason? Your soul does not die. Your body is a temporary home for your soul. You will go somewhere else after you die. If someone came back from the dead to warn you, would you believe them or still try to deny it?
Dearest Stewart – Well no, it’s not. What you say is very graphic, but it’s not based on any evidence. No one actually has come back to tell us what is on the other side. You make a lot of claims about what happens there, but you seem to have nothing more than a very old collection of manuscripts to back you up. I’m sorry, but I’m not just taking your word for it.
If you have a personal experience, let’s hear it. Is your explanation testable?
I admit, it would be nice to think there would be some justice for Harold Shipman, Saddam Hussein, Nazi death camp guards, the 9/11 suicide bombers, Idi Amin and so on – but wish-thinking doesn’t make it so.
(But then again, it raises the question about why some prayers of innocent victims are heard, and others in death camps or crashing planes, are not. In fact, when I read about a pair of newlyweds, praising God after cancelling their return from Brazil on flight AF447, it leaves a very sour taste.)
Adrian – “No one actually has come back to tell us what is on the other side.”
Would you believe them?
It’s the same today as 2,000 years ago. Read about Lazarus: Luke 16:19-31.
“Is your explanation testable?”
It sounds to me like you’re making excuses not to believe.
Not everything can be put in a test tube.
Yes, I am aware of the Lazarus legend. I have no more reason to accept that, as I have the legend of Mohammad’s or Joseph Smith’s visions. (You surely agree with me, that the latter two occurrences, both involving illiterate men, to be false – why then, make an exception for the first story?)
But testable – falsifiable – statements help break away from such questions and circular reasoning. The claim is extraordinary, so I’d expect the evidence to be, too. We hear or read about apparitions, miracles – but these invariably seem to happen in caves, or questionable circumstances. With all the CCTVs around, we’d have seen something unusual by now, somewhere, surely?
If any of my dearly missed friends and family did come back, I would be persuaded. There is a great book, by Carl Sagan, ‘The Demon Haunted World’, in which he gives a ‘baloney testing kit’ – mainly on the topic of UFO abductions.
One question that stands out is: have we explored all other natural explanations, before we consider the supernatural ones?
I could go on but right now, pete tong is on – and my religion is house music, so I will have to come back later
Whether you believe that what happened to Lazarus is true or not, my point was that even if someone – anyone – came back from the dead – would you listen or just pretend it was a dream or that things will be okay in the end regardless and carry on as before and be damned?
Alien “abductees” have been under some kind of mind control, whether via constant TV watching, I don’t know. That’s what I think.
Some people believe that there are so many sci-fi films, books, TV progs, ’sightings,’ etc., because the global elites are readying the world for a faked alien invasion in order to produce a worldwide police state (sooner than is happening anyway).
“One question that stands out is: have we explored all other natural explanations, before we consider the supernatural ones?”
That’s a good question, but on the other hand we should also ask, do we properly understand that which we think we do?
One thing I never learned is this: what is house music?
If someone indeed did come back from the dead, I would not run away from the fact. Far from it. Eternal life – it might be interesting, if there is enough to do. But my idea of hell would be total unity, total agreement. Never ending praise. I think Mark Twain once asked something like: ‘why would people want to go to a place that is just like church for all eternity, when most cannot stand it for one hour?’ I certainly don’t want that to be true.
But say the afterlife were true, it opens up a totally new dimension of knowledge to explore. It becomes another dimension of science. I would have infinite questions – possibly impertinent ones, too:
What does heaven look like? What do you all do up there? Where is it? Is it worth going to – or is it going to be nothing but eternal praise? How are the grandparents? Why did the creator develop life by such a longwinded, wasteful process, the one process that made him unnecessary? What was he thinking of when he put the solar system on a direct collision course with Andromeda?
Why did he create human beings, and spend the first 200,000 years or so, watching impassively, as our ancestors fought bitterly for survival – facing near extinction in Ice Ages, asteroid collisions, supervolcano eruptions, fights for food, warmth, fighting off disease while being terrified of predators; then after all this time, suddenly intervene in Palestine (as opposed to more established civilisations like Greece or China) from where the message would take so long to spread out, even now, the majority of the world’s population has not accepted or heard the wonderful news? And why create a belief in him that is different in every single person alive on the planet, or who ever lived?** Who created the creator……..?
- We should always test our beliefs and ask how we know what we know. We can only say, ‘this is the limit of our understanding at the present time’. Rather than filling in the gaps in knowledge with the Divine – uncertainty challenges us to roll our sleeves up and find plausible answers. I don’t think I would be happy to have all the answers. There would be nothing left to discover. It would be stultifying.
These burning questions are why I cannot just accept the wager of Bliase Pascale – it being safer to believe, because you lose nothing. The questions still linger, unanswered, whether accept such a wager or not. It becomes impossible to accept such a wager, without a great deal of deceit.
- House music…. Well, virtually everything electronic at the moment > Radio 1 on a Friday, around 7pm.
** PS. never mind the certainty on both sides of the homosexuality debate; The Big Questions last month featured a very well meaning Reverend (female, for the record), who was absolutely sure that pets ‘and wasps’ went to heaven, too. That unappealing idea of paradise, is very real in her mind, if – hopefully – nowhere else.
Nicely done Andrew F, great post.
I haven’t had time to read all the comments so forgive me if I say something that has already been said, but from what I have read I feel that something very important is being missed. Stewart, without saying “because the Bible says so”, why is homosexuality immoral? I can’t imagine a single argument in favour of this claim that doesn’t come down to the obviously silly “because said so” argument. So, please enlighten us all and explain your non-biblical argument as to why homosexuality is a sin.
Oli.
oops, typo meant to say: “because *god* said so”
Oli, ’sin’ is a biblical concept. So, it’s perfectly alright to describe homosexuality as a ’sin’. Your challenge, to prove homosexuality is immoral is perfectly fine though. And also, what has ’sin’ got to do with morality? It means nothing to me.
Adrian – Mark Twain said a lot of interesting things, but this quote is so dumb, it could easily be mistakenly attributed to Dawkins.
“Why did he create human beings, and spend the first 200,000 years or so…”
He didn’t. The Theory of Evolution is an exercise to explain our existence without acknowledging the spiritual or supernatural.
As for pets going to Heaven. It might help people in their hour of grief to believe it, but as they don’t have souls, I doubt we’ll see them again.
Or maybe all animals end up in Heaven because they’re just animals and don’t know any better. Maybe it’s just humans who will be separated into wheat and tares – a bundle for saving and a bundle for burning.
Like I say to people – you don’t want to be a tare.
Adrian – “…what has ’sin’ got to do with morality? It means nothing to me.”
This has made me sad.